turning now to news in Afghanistan where the Taliban has ordered that any woman going out in public will have to wear *** burka. This new rule is one of the most severe restrictions on women since the Taliban regained control last august. The decree also says women should only leave their homes when necessary if they are caught breaking any of the rules in public, their male guardians or relatives can be taken to court and face up to three days of jail time. So let's stick with the story and find out what's at stake here. Heather Barr is the associate director for women's rights division at the Human Rights Watch and we've reached her in new york heather. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you heather since the Taliban took over in august, we've seen women unable to attend school go to university, they can't travel without *** male guardian. And starting today, burkas are mandatory in public. Is this the kinder gentler Taliban we were promised. Well, I don't think afghan women ever believed that there was *** kinder gentler Taliban. But I think *** lot of foreign diplomats wanted to believe because it was *** way of rescuing some sort of success from *** military disaster. Um and they wanted desperately to cut *** deal and to get out and believing that the Taliban had moderated helped to facilitate that happening. But afghan women's rights activists said to us all along That they never believed this and they've been saying to us since August 15 when the Taliban took over the capital, That they believed that the violations of women's rights would intensify the restrictions on women would tighten over time. And what's happened today is *** really, really devastating development in terms of proving them right. You know, we've been hearing the same thing since august as well. We've spoken to *** number of women of Afghan descent who are in Afghanistan and they all said this was going to happen. And now it has. So what are you hearing from them now that it has happened? I mean, the walls have been closing in on women steadily since august 15th and and the what we're experiencing is we're talking often with, you know, schoolgirls, teachers, professional women um activists and more and more the people we talked to the women we talked to just sound hopeless and as if, you know, often they talk about suicide and about wanting their lives to end because life feels untenable to them under these circumstances. I'll read you *** quote from the Minister of Vice and virtue in Afghanistan and he said, we want our sisters to live with dignity and safety. And the decree goes on to say for all dignified afghan women wearing hijab is necessary. And the best hijab is the camaraderie, the head to toe burqa, which is part of our tradition and is respectful. What is the problem with that? Because many, even in the west would argue, well, it is tradition. What's the big deal if women have to wear it, they have to wear it. So afghan women have never been focused primarily on what they wear. You know, many, I've heard many women and girls say, look, I'll wear whatever they want me to wear. Just let me study, let me work. Um But this decree is not just about clothing, um it's about um saying that women shouldn't leave the house at all, which is much more important than what they wear when they go outside. And and it also does something incredibly destructive by making men officially through government policy through taliban policy, government. Sorry, sorry, pardon me. But but but putting men in charge of policing the women and their families. So it takes away women's autonomy completely. It takes away their right to even decide for themselves, are they going to respect this order? Are they going to continue to take risks? Like the women have been coming out on the streets and protesting because suddenly now their father, their brother, their husband um is responsible for controlling them explicitly and will face punishment if they try to exercise their own rights. And what is the punishment that either the women or those male guardians will face? So the order has said that um if the woman or her family member works for the government there to be dismissed. Um and the male family member is to be visited at home and warned at first um and then imprisoned for three days and then if the if the conduct continues, then they could face further punishment through through criminal charges. This of course is is completely outside of the law. There is no law that permits this in Afghanistan. This is explicitly in violation of the the Afghan constitution. It's in clear violation of all of Afghanistan's obligations under international law. And of course it has nothing to do also with with religion or culture. It's just um you know, the Taliban's own extreme misogyny, which is out of step with every other country in the world. Why isn't this story getting more attention Ukraine? Um I mean, that's part of the answer, but it's also about the fact that the countries that were so involved in Afghanistan over the last 20 years are keen to forget about what, you know, was *** long extended embarrassing engagement for them. Um So I think those are two factors. I think another factor is that does the world care that much about women's rights. You know, most of our political leaders are still men. Um and I just don't think that this is seen as that much of *** priority for for male politicians. And one of my great frustrations in this moment is that we haven't seen more action from the countries that um that have chosen to intentionally have *** feminist foreign policy. Canada of course is one of those countries. Um the others are France Germany, Mexico Sweden and also Norway, I believe. Um and so, you know, we're really calling on those countries in this moment to step forward to provide leadership and to demonstrate To Afghan women and to the Taliban that in 2020, to this type of *** wholesale destruction of women's rights is not going to be tolerated heather. But how does that get done? I completely hear what you're saying and many have called for the same thing, but the response that we get from governments is that they either don't want to get involved. It's another country, it's their concern right now or there, they limit the amount of trade or amount of aid that is sent to Afghanistan, which ultimately ends up hurting not the Taliban, but the most vulnerable, which is often women. And of course Afghanistan is dealing with *** mass starvation issue at this point. What if some concrete action that the international community could take? So the first thing I would say is, you're already involved if you sent troops to Afghanistan, if you helped to create this situation where, you know, for example, there was *** government where 75% of the government budget came from AIDS. You're already involved and you don't have the option to say at this point, I don't want to be involved. Um thank you for raising the humanitarian crisis. Um this is *** devastating crisis which is happening alongside the human rights crisis, 95% of Afghans haven't got enough food to eat right now. And that's because of decisions that were made in foreign capitals um that have, you know, completely stopped the Afghan economy from functioning after the Taliban takeover. And and those decisions were made largely by the United States, but other donor countries are responsible as well in terms of. So, so one thing that all of the donors need to be doing is trying to um let the Afghan economy function again so that people can actually go to work, get *** paycheck and feed their families. Um But then there are other things that the international community can do and should do as well. There are things that the taliban wants from the international community. Um you know, you might think that their priorities would be about the, you know, hunger and um the economic system that seems to be less important to them. And what seems to be most important to the taliban is their own status and recognition. They seem desperate to be um seen as legitimate government to be recognized through things like um taking control of Afghanistan's seat at the United Nations and so on. But the key point is that as long as there are things that the taliban wants from the international community, there's leverage and there's an opportunity to engage them and put pressure on them and that requires *** coordinated, thoughtful strategic effort by the international community and that's what we've been missing so far, Heather. Barr is the associate director of the Women's Rights Division at Human Rights Watch Heather. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Mhm.